"Since I can't prove to myself that they feel pain, I should treat them as if they don't feel pain."

This is a selfish, oppressor-centric viewpoint. The more moral stance is:

"If there is more than a remote chance that they feel pain, I should treat them as if they feel pain."

As pointed out in the comments in the previous post, the argument shown in this post's title is sometimes used by people who want to exploit bees for their honey.

Since bees are sentient, avoid danger, possess memories, make choices, learn about their environment, communicate with each other in fairly sophisticated ways, and appear to have interests that they pursue, there is more than a remote chance that they feel pain. They may also derive pleasure from gathering nectar, or from discovering a meadow of newly-opened blooms and leading their hive members to it. They may have a will to live; they certainly take measures to escape from harm.

When considering whether our non-essential, easily avoidable actions may cause pain to other beings, the benefit of the doubt should go to the most vulnerable, the ones who have the most to lose, the ones who would be forced to make deep sacrifices because of our demands.

Consider that:

- Most marine biologists now agree that fish feel pain; 50 years ago that was not the case. (Recent studies also show that fish have individual personalities, use tools, play games, and have long-term memories.)

- Two or three generations ago, a majority of scientists thought that non-humans were incapable of emotion; that position has been completely overturned.

- In the 19th century, when the animal experimentation industry started, researchers claimed that animals were automatons; the animals' screams in response to being tortured were merely mechanical sounds.

- Only in the last 10-15 years have scientists in any number concluded that chickens, with far smaller and simpler brains than humans, not only have impressive cognitive skills and a sense of the past and future, but a rich emotional life.

- Recent scientific research supports suspicions that lobsters, crabs, and other crustaceans feel pain.

We have consistently underestimated animals' sentience and, particularly, their capacity for suffering and experiencing emotional states.

Some humility would be in order.

(Actually, I suspect that our intuition about animal sentience has been fairly on target throughout the ages; it's our science and reasoning on this matter that has been deficient, or blatantly self-serving.)

Suppose we assume that bees feel pain and we're wrong. What is the cost? Honey in our tea and on our toast. An indulgence. A pleasantry. Agave nectar and other sweeteners are excellent substitutes. In other words, the cost is trivial.

Suppose, on the other hand, we assume that bees don't feel pain (perhaps because the notion suits us) and we're wrong. What's the cost? Widespread infliction of pain on helpless beings, for no good reason. And possibly an irrecoverable deficit in our moral obligations to fellow sentients.

But our relationships with animals, and with other beings who are less powerful than us, are more than utilitarian equations. By developing compassion and empathy for individuals across a vast spectrum of species, we foster peace - both inner and outer. We cultivate harmony and goodwill. We rejoice in our kinship with the sentient creatures with whom we share the earth. We become allies, partners, and friends with animals, not oppressors and dominators. Our hearts are gladdened not by extracting resources from them, but by seeing them thrive, and helping them fulfill their goals. Their satisfaction is our happiness. We have no desire to exploit them or steal from them, or to look for excuses for doing so.

Living in peace with our nonhuman neighbors provides benefits that are profound, mutual, and non-violent. Enslaving nonhumans for their flesh, reproductive capabilities, or bodily functions provides superficial, fleeting benefits that are extracted at the expense of the enslaved, and that produce inner turmoil and less-than-honest self-dialog in the enslavers.

The assertion that victims of our exploitation do not feel pain is a defense mechanism. It is a self-protective, weak rationalization to control and plunder for pleasure. Spreading our compassion as widely as possible, following the golden rule to the best of our ability - basically, living according to our deepest morals - rids us of exploitative desires and the need to conjure up justifications for morally questionable behaviors.

Thoughts on Honey

Farming bees for honey is essentially an act of domination. You can have bees, just as people running farm sanctuaries can take care of chickens, but things get... hm... 'sketchy' once you begin to take the things that they make. And bees make honey for themselves - namely, for their pupae. If you're taking that honey, they may not have enough to sustain the hive - that's one reason for CCS. Another is the idea that, because commercial bee farmers often take all the honey and give back only sugar water, the bees have been physically and psychologically susceptible to diseases because of that deficiency.

Taking honey from bees is an act of violence... It is an act that says, 'because I can, and because I 'own' you, I will do this.' It is might makes right all over again. Is veganism not against that? Is veganism not against all exploitation of animals - be they cows, mollusks or even bees? Why call yourself vegan if you do not subscribe to its implicit ethics - that animals are not ours to exploit? That animals are not ours to brutalise? That animals are not ours to steal from, however 'nicely' we may do it?

If I am correct, and eating/taking honey is an act of violence against bees just as is taking an egg from a chicken - for, by taking the egg from the chicken, you doom her to a short life of osteoporosis and nutritional deficiencies - then eating/taking honey is morally unacceptable.

It is acceptable, however, to begin colonies on your land to support your land without taking the honey. In this way you become symbiotes. In this way you become, not necessarily friends - which cannot happen when two live in such different worlds - but allies nevertheless. Just as it would be acceptable to put up birdhouses, it is acceptable to take care of bees - because you do not steal from them...

If they pollinate your fruit trees and plants, and if you eat those fruits and plants but do not take their honey, then you are truly symbiotic. You need each other, and you live in peace with each other, rather than either of you taking what was not made for you, but for someone else.

It boils down to this: you are an exploiter even if you exploit 'nicely' - so why not just not do it?

What About Plants? And the Topic of Sea Creatures

For starters, let me just say that the "What about plants?!?!" question strikes me an awful lot like, "What about the men?!?!" whenever somebody brings up a feminist topic. There doesn't seem to be a genuine interest in the ethical implications of it; it's just a way to distract the question-asker from their own underlying feelings of guilt and threatened privilege.

Now. Ask yourself: do you honest-to-gods believe that cutting up a head of lettuce and cutting up a live, unanesthetized dog is the same ethically?

If you do, let me just say that you don't need to be on the internet. You need to be on a video with the caption, "This is what drugs did to me."

Now, since you likely do not believe that at all, let me ask you: why? Well 'cause, guess what, likelihood is that you don't really think that plants feel pain, just as you wouldn't think that bacteria (also alive by a scientific definition) feel pain. That's an important consideration. Just because something is alive does not mean it feels pain. While I have been told by several now-graduated students of marine biology that, in fact, most sea critters do feel pain because they possess, rather than a central nervous system, a "nerve net", plants have no nerves whatsoever. You can't use oysters as your scapegoat (hah) in this situation.

If there is nothing there to feel pain, if there is nothing there to feel at all, why worry about it? One only needs rights if one possesses emotions; rights only apply to those who will suffer if they do not have them.

Life, liberty, and bodily integrity. These are the three basic, essential rights of my moral code to any being with a self.

"Self" need not be humanlike to be important. Yes, sure, we know that we have selves, and we can recognise them in other mammals, avians, reptiles, amphibians and cetaceans where we cannot so easily recognise them in sea creatures. That doesn't matter; just because someone is different from you doesn't mean that they're unworthy of those essential rights.

However, again, there has to be something there.

Most people who honestly think that there might be a chance that plants feel pain point to the book The Secret Lives of Plants, which contained the results of a "study" (I use this word loosely) on plants that supposedly showed that they feel things and/or think. I'll note here that the author has actually not allowed anyone else to replicate his experiments through the withholding of information about his method, therefore it is extremely unlikely that it was true in the first place.

Another "study" was done on a plant using a polygraph test that supposedly showed "reactions" in the plant with random events. Now, if you know jack shit about polygraph tests, the results might in fact seem plausible. However, I do know something about polygraph tests. They are the so-called "lie detector test" machines, and they rely on the measurements of three physical characteristics that plants do not have: heart rate, skin perspiration, and... damn, I forget the last, but I believe it was muscle tension.

How the hell would you be able to tell anything from a test that depends on criteria that your subject doesn't even have?

But really, let's get back to why we're really being asked this question, which goes back to my first point: this is a distraction. It doesn't really matter if plants feel pain - the ones we're discussing are animals.

First, if you were really serious about plants feeling pain (which you're not), then you wouldn't eat animals because animals need plants to grow and you'd be eating several dozen to hundreds of times the plants that you would need to go directly into your body to sustain you - calorie expenditure, after all - in fact, you would be morally obligated to become a fruitarian so as to never cause plants pain again, which is also vegan.

Second, even though you can't fix everything doesn't mean you can't stop the pain you directly or indirectly cause others through your intentional actions. Or, put another way: just because you can't be perfect doesn't mean you're excused from trying to be better than you are. Life is, as they say, a series of trials and tests. You either grow as a person or you go back to the starting block because you keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

It is, however, the second that leads people to ask this question. So to all of you who have this question to ask, I say:

Stop fucking making excuses and go vegan.

Because the animals don't care about your excuses.

"The Indians Killed Buffalo and Used the Whole Animal. When I Eat Meat, I'm Honoring Indians."

The Plains Indians of the 19th century didn't have the same choices as us.

The greater lesson of the Indians referred to in the title quote is not that they killed buffalo, but that given their constraints, they obtained their food and clothing in the most sustainable, least invasive way. To follow those principles today means to go vegan.

The Indians didn't kill buffalo gratuitously. To kill animals strictly for pleasure, as is nearly always the case when we eat meat, dairy, or eggs in the "developed" world and have some awareness of alternatives, may in fact be quite disrespectful to the memory of the Indians. The same should be said for severely confining animals, mutilating them, and distorting their bodies to be obese and top-heavy or to overproduce milk and eggs - all standard practices in modern animal agriculture.

The buffalo of lore ran free. But even if you consume no animal products other than those from free-ranging animals you kill yourself (which rules out virtually everyone in the Western world), from an environmental standpoint alone you're still irresponsible. If everyone hunted, we'd kill off all the wildlife and create an ecological disaster in no time.

Here's another way that eating meat (especially beef) and dairy dishonors Indians. In the 1880s, ranchers took over much of the land on which the Indians lived. Often the takeover was violent and deceitful. The Indians were killed en masse and relegated to reservations. The ranchers imported huge humbers of cattle, who chewed everything in sight and displaced native flora and fauna and greatly reduced biological diversity. In some cases, thriving ecosystems were turned into dry, dusty deserts. To support the beef or dairy industries is to add insult to the Indians' and the land's injuries.

One more thing I should add is that I'm quite sure that some of the people who claim to be honoring Indians when they eat meat don't seem to be that knowledeable about Indians, or care much about them, or mention them in other circumstances. In other words, the whole Indian thing is often just another seat-of-the-pants excuse. It's much more satisfying, and honorable, and honest, to be as kind and respectful as possible to all sentient beings, and to strive to leave as small an environmental footprint as practical, and in almost all cases in this neck of the woods, that means - among other things - transitioning to a peaceful plant-based diet. In that way you'll honor all life.

The Environmental Problem With Honey

The problem with honey is not that it's not raw. The problem with honey is not that it's not organic. The problem with honey is not that it's fair trade.

The problem with honey is not that we're doing it wrong. The problem with honey is that it's honey.

See, a lot of so-called raw "vegans" don't know this, but the problem is honey itself. The problem with Colony Collapse Disorder is just one in a long string of problems with the honey industry, starting with the idea that other creatures on Earth are ours to do with as we wish. (That's speciesism, dear, and real vegans are against that shit, sorry to pull the Real Vegan stuff with you - but it's not just a diet. It's ethics.) The next problem came when we started domesticating bees, historically a sign that things are gonna go real bad real soon. And once we started domesticating bees, like farmed salmon, we began crowding out - environmentally, food-wise or just in terms of space - the native bees. This is always a dangerous precedent: once you have a breed of "good ____ producers", you tend to use that exclusively, and so do all your neighbors, until finally you have very little diversity.

You can see where this is going, right? Listen to me: the reason that CCD is happening at all is because humans commercialised bees in the first place, and then continued doing it. To me, it's perfectly natural that CCD would occur, given that commercial beekeepers usually take all the honey, or most of it, and then feed the bees on sugar water over the winter. (They also tend to kill off most of the bees during this time, too. And we were saying that honey was vegan how... ?) See, if humans are take this supposedly "life-giving" honey, then the bees are not getting it, they're getting an inferior substance to the stuff that they have been "designed" to produce for themselves throughout millions and millions of years. I honestly wonder how we could have done a better job of precipitating CCD.

So yeah, dudes. It's your fault that we have CCD. Stop eating honey, because eating "raw, organic, fair trade" honey is NOT going to make the problem go away - it'll only make it worse!

And a note for the health nuts (and by "nuts" I mean actually insane, because their logical faculties clearly have been bamboozled by the nutzoid but highly charismatic David Wolfe):

Yes, honey is full of digestive enzymes. They're bee enzymes, not human enzymes. Cow enzymes would probably be as useful to us as bee enzymes, you know. (Yeah, I'm not actually promoting eating cow vomit, I'm just pointing out that little logical fallacy, there.)

So, short answer: when you eat honey, you destroy the environment as well as bees' lives and humans' claim to being a species that can make moral decisions.

Are Feathers And Shells Vegan?

Hey All,
This is PM here to give my answer to a question many of you will be asking as summer draws closer. You want to know if using / buying / collecting shells / feathers is vegan. Short answer: NO!!!!!

Here's the part when some one says "But PM, why not? It doesn't hurt the birds or the sea creatures. They weren't gonna use them. Can't I take what is essentially their trash and recycle it?"
To understand why it's not vegan to use shells and feathers maybe it would be prudent to have a small science lesson.

Shells - Lets expand our definition of shells, because lets face it from sea shells to tortoise shells there are alot of varieties we could talk about. To quote wikipedia "A shell is a hard, rigid outer layer developed by a wide variety of different animal species, including mollusks, crustaceans, turtles and tortoises, armadillos, and microscopic organisms.Shells are used for protection, locomotion, defence, structure or in ways that relate to feeding."

Please note the "mysterious" absence of uses like decoration, or to entertain bored humans. Like most things in nature shells have a role to play, some animals use abandoned shells for shelter, and even if the shells aren't used over time they are weathered down and reworked into other parts of the natural world that created them. similarly...

Feathers- Feathers insulate birds from water and cold temperatures. The individual feathers in the wings and tail play important roles in controlling flight.
As to what the feathers just laying around are for, well to put it simply: They're for the birds. Birds will often use found feathers in making nests.
now the tricky part about feathers is that found feathers aren't the only sort you're likely to come across.

Don't forget down: the following info on down comes from Veganpeace.com : Most down is plucked out of live geese. The geese are put through extreme agony when pluckers tear out several ounces of their feathers. about 5 weeks after having been plucked, the geese will have grown new feathers and are sent through a machine which will pluck their longest feathers. After this they will go to the slaughterhouse.


The Point: The animals don't make their feathers and shells for us to use. Using them is making the statement that it is ok to use animals and their creations. It supports the idea that they are commodities. Besides... I could be wrong but doesn't the whole concept of Veganism center on not using animal products if it is in our power to chose an alternative? There is no life or death choice involved in this case. Because, where shells and feathers are concerned, it is always in our power to seek an alternative, it's never vegan to use them.


As always this is just my sensible opinion and not the universal one,
Yours as long as wanted,
Plant_Murder

The Plant_Murderer's Plea for Innosence

Hey, This is PM here ( well duh , right?), anyway this is the one that any of you with an overly developed sense of irony have been waiting for.

I, the plant murderer who for safety reasons must remain nameless, do hereby come before the court and plead innocent on all charges relating to the supposed murder of various members of the plant kingdom. In the absence of my lawyer, I cite the following reasons as to why this case should be thrown out and why, if the proceedings stand, I am innocent.

Exhibits A-PM : The definition of the term murder: the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought.
My Defense:
Despite my misnaming moniker ( non-fitting name) it is impossible to murder a plant because a plant is not a person. They don't feel, they dont have a sense of themselves, they don't feel pain. they are not people.

Besides, if we don't eat them the broccoli will take over the world.

Seriously: If plants had feelings then:
walking across your lawn would be genocide.
kids could opt out of flower dissections on moral grounds.
and there would be humanly harvested spinach on sale at Whole Foods.
+
all meat eaters would STILL be more guilty than most vegans.

when you eat meat you support the killing of all the tons of grain that got filtered through the animal prior to slaughter.

I rest my case. So Judge, what's the verdict?

Hoping there's good vegan food in prison,
Plant murderer

PS. The name is my way of being ironic and funny. the joke is that if you've been vegan for a while and told anyone then you've probably been hit with the plants have feelings line, and therefore been accused of being a Plant Murderer.
PPS. Read the other post on this topic, it's good and scientific and wasn't written by a 17 year-old trying to be funny.

Isn't Being Vegan Difficult?

Any current difficulties with being vegan -- such as having to decline cake at birthday parties, answering "Where do you get your protein" questions once a week, or knowing too much when you drive by cows grazing -- are society-imposed, not intrinsic.

It's profoundly more difficult to make excuses for inflicting avoidable violence on innocent beings, or to deny it, or to try and not think about the consequences of your actions, or to fend off your conscience. That wears on you, one way or another.

The difficulties in being vegan that one must endure for the time being are miniscule compared to the compassion generated, the suffering spared, the justice restored, and the peace of mind gained.

---

(Inspired by the previous post.)

Isn't Being Vegan Inconvenient?

Hey all,

This is PM here to tackle a question that I must confess is a bit of a problem for me when I'm asked in person.

I went vegan less than a year ago. When I went vegan, I was sixteen and didn't know how to cook or follow a recipe. A teenager to the core, I didn't know how to plan meals or how to anticipate my food needs when grocery shopping. When I first made the switch, my dad left me to save up lunch money for meals. That was inconvenient. Trying to go vegan without support from my family and subsisting on saved up lunch money for a food budget was inconvenient;but being vegan isn't about family enforced poverty. My mom sent me care packages and I eventually moved in with her, problem solved.

That's it. That's my big inconvenience story. I don't feel inconvenienced when restaurants become exercises in patience, or when I've read the whole ingredients list only to realize that it said it had dairy in it in bold print at the bottom. I don't feel inconvenienced when by best-friend gets in a fussy mood and calls me a rabbit-food eating hippy or when I have to bring my own lunch to school every day. Those small and acceptable consequences are the trade-offs that I hardly notice for looking at the pay-out.

As a vegan, and an activist I am doing more to help the world than I ever thought I was capable of. I'm learning to think for myself and what it means to believe in something and to value life enough to change who I am to protect it. I'm healthy. I'm not meek anymore ( ask the vegan freaks : meek vegans suffer). Looking at all of that I can only think that being an omnivore, or at least being who I was as an omnivore was more inconvenient than anything veganism has thrown my way.

Being vegan can be anything from in-expressibly amazing to insufferably alienating, but for me at least, it's not inconvenient. It's a big part of who I am and things like label reading and lunch taking are part of how things are. Does that make sense? Well that's how I see it, and i can't explain it better.

yours till Bush grows a brain,
(like that's going to happen),
Plant_Murderer

Who wants to marry an omnivore? or "Vegansexual?!?"

Hey All,

For the last time in 2007, this is P_M here to give my point of view on the whole "vegansexual" thing. For those who you who either don't know, or can't guess vegansexual is a term coined to represent vegans who only sleep with other vegans. Before I continue I should mention that it is a preference and therefore individual ( I don't speak for every vegan living or dead so don't think that anything i say holds true for all of us).

now that the disclaimer is out there, I will say that while I would not have sex with an omnivore. I will never refer to myself as "vegansexual" because I think the term is insipid and unneeded. there is no term for people who don't kiss smokers , or for Christians who don't date outside of their religion, so why should there be one for vegans who would rather not have physical relationships with omnivores.

At present, my dating policy is that I'll go out on a first date with anyone I find worthy, omnivore, vegan, vegetarian, republican, whatever. if the person is vegan then the relationship will progress normally, and if it's meant to be ( it's an old saying go with it) there will be wedding bells and little vegans corrupting the world. If the person is not vegan, things get interesting.

If the person i'm going on this hypothetical first date with is a vegetarian, then i'll try to encourage them to go vegan and if they do, it's all good, if they don't then as things start to get serious i'll talk with them and level about my desire for a vegan household and if they are willing to comply (order non-vegan food at restaurants and keep it out of the house/ raise the kids vegan) then the relationship will progress if not...bye bye, it was nice while it lasted you cheese addicted little something or other.

if the person is an omnivore it works the same way, because I couldn't be with someone for a long time if they could kill or condone / support the killing of sentient beings. Life is too precious to me to spend it with people who throw it away for the sake of taste.

But what about love? someone reading has got to be thinking that right now. well, love could lead me to compromise ( allow him to keep non-vegan items in a small section of the refrigerator) , but love is an unpredictable variable. i like to think that love involves sharing values on some level, and that my expression of those shared values as veganism is something that the man i end up with will share. it takes more than love to build a lasting bond with another person. Besides...

Asking me if i could love a speciesist is like asking you if you could love a white supremacist or a sexist or a racist. Could you love and marry someone who you didn't think was ethical or morally sound in their actions towards others?

to wind this up, let me say that I know the term vegansexual is usually purely centered on sexual relations, but in this post I've opted to extend it to refer to long term relationships and marriage, because thats where I thought it most relevant to me ( I'm one of those classy chicks who need a ring before i let a guy go there), hope I haven't confused anyone with the term stretching.

thats all for now,
comment so I wont forget why I do this, ( or even so I'll know that you think I should do it better),
yours till I'm not anymore,
Plant_Murder

Where Do You Draw the Line?

What about plankton? What about bacteria?

I draw the line below cows. Below chickens. Below pigs, turkeys, sheep, goats, rabbits, and all the other animals on farms.

Below fish. I don't say that for shock value. The evidence - scientific and observational - is overwhelming that fish are sentient, feel pain, make decisions, and seek happiness. They appear to experience fear and anticipation, and in all likelihood they possess a wide range of emotions.

Don't worry about where the line is. You don't need to know exactly where the line is to stop killing animals who are clearly sentient, feel pain, have the capacity to experience joy and suffering, and have a will to live.

Where do you draw the line for assault? Rape? Murder? Any form of moral transgression has gray areas near its boundaries. But we don't defend assault, rape, and murder by saying "Where do you draw the line?" We don't commit grand larceny just because we can't precisely pin down where one draws the line for theft.

Try to be as kind, non-violent, and non-exploitative as possible and you won't be concerned about where the line is. Try to make the boundaries of your compassion as wide as you can.

I strongly suspect that "Where do you draw the line" is not so much a serious intellectual inquiry as it is a delaying tactic or a reflexive, defensive response. You're probably a decent person and to be reminded that you're participating in the wholly avoidable killing and torture of innocent animals hurts. It's normal to come to your own defense.

I would advise asking yourself honestly what it is that keeps you doing this and prevents you from moving toward a more compassionate and non-violent diet. Common factors are habit, ignorance, and fear.

Habit. You started eating meat, dairy, and eggs when you were a baby, and it's what you're used to. You practically have a "muscle memory" at this point: You go to the store and almost automatically pick up chicken breasts or ground beef and a carton of milk.

Ignorance. You don't know what you'd eat if you were a vegetarian. (The variety is almost endless - really.) You think we need to eat meat. (We don't and in fact, our bodies process it quite poorly.) You may think animals on farms are treated well (they're not). You may think cows need to be milked (they don't) and that we don't kill laying hens (we do, when they're quite young). You may think that farmed animals are killed swiftly and painlessly (it's actually quite brutal).

Fear.

• You may be afraid that a vegetarian - or to be more precise, vegan - diet will be strange and unsatisfying. (With the plethora of good-tasting meat, dairy, and egg substitutes on the market, you can transition to an animal-free diet without changing your routine or cuisine much at all. But I recommend expanding your horizons or you'll miss out on a world of tasty flavors. A vegan diet is very satisfying both in terms of variety and healthfulness of food and the fact that you no longer have to engage in denial or unconvincing rationalizations for killing and inflicting suffering on animals.)


• You may be afraid of not getting enough protein. (You'll get plenty of protein, as well as other nutrients that you may be short on now, and you may very well lower your risk of heart disease, stroke, cancer, and diabetes. Unless your new diet consists of nothing but tortilla chips and Dr. Pepper.)


• You think you could never give up cheese. (Trust me. After six months of no cheese - and possibly much sooner - you'll see cheese as a big glob of unappealing, fatty, artery-clogging animal secretions, with added pus from mastitis infections. One reason is that cheese contains concentrations of casomorphins, which have a narcotic effect. Within a few months you clear your body of the cravings. But if you must, there are some good vegan cheese substitutes.)


• You may not see yourself as a "vegetarian" or "vegan." Perhaps you think that only pasty-face aging hippies or spoiled in-your-face radicals are veg*ans. (I say this with love and respect: Get over it. Be who you are, just a kinder version. Don't worry about what your friends think. You'll probably unintentionally make them feel guilty. Simply explain what you're doing with confidence but respectful understanding of their unease. They'll come around.)

There are a million sites on the Net, and plenty of groups and cookbooks and brochures and starter guides for showing you how to reduce and eventually eliminate - as much as feasible in this society - the animal products from your diet. The main barriers are psychological. But those can all be overcome. Where there's a will - not to mention sufficient resources and support - there's a way.

I grew up a die-hard meat-eater. I had all the aforementioned habits, ignorance, and fears. I'm not Superman, I don't have super-human willpower, I'm not into eating bland rice and steamed vegetables every night, I'm not a great cook, I'm not into hackey-sack, I like jazz and I think the New England Patriots are having a phenomenal season. If I can become vegan, so can you. And when you do, not only will you not ask questions such as "Where do you draw the line," but you will probably respond to them just like I'm doing now. Do the right thing, and good luck. Remember, help, support, and information are two or three clicks away.

Why Are Omnis So Frustrating? or Why are vegans so angry?

hey all,

this is p_m back after a long war with my ineffective computer to talk about why vegans are so angry. to start off let me tell you about a couple of my very omniverous classmates.
The two of them are the most considerate omnivores one might ever hope to meet. they apologies when they mention meat around me, ask me frequently if it will bother me if they should happen to show a picture of someone eating meat or eggs or dairy in a class project, and one even makes a point of saying that she "would" go vegan if not for x then apologizing for both consuming said non-vegan x and for mentioning the vile thing in my presence.

the two of them annoy the crap out of me. they do their best to avoid offending and in the process tend to make me feel as if my very presence is making them feel like murderers(which it should and if it lead to them going vegan i'd cope but anyway). while they over compensate and i reluctantley console them i'm left with two more people that are nice and intelligent that i cant stand to be around.

dont get me wrong people being too considerate isn't the only anger causing obstacle vegans have to face.

SOCIETY AT LARGE IS SUPPORTING MURDER / DEATH/ TORTURE / THE MAKING OF SENTIENT BEINGS INTO NOTHING MORE THAN THINGS OR COMMODITYS!!!!!!

that is fucked up. really fucked up. and they ( if your vegan) or you ( if your not) seem to get it even though its in their/ your faces at nearly every moment of life.

it's like being the first one of your friends to stop believing in santa claus. it's so obvious you want to shake them all, hell sometimes you want to straight up slap the sight from their eyes and the sense into their heads. it's a pain, literally.

vegans are "so angry", because omnivores are so oblivious.

finally let me tell you about my family. at thanks giving my uncle greeted me with "your looking vegan today" and the food that my mother and i made enough of for everyone, which took hours of time and effort and planning, was set in a dark corner next to the bones of some poor turkey and proptly labled "vay-gun" food and therefore distasteful.

ask me again why vegans are so angry...i dare you.

yours till the grand return to Vega ( which i know is not a planet for who ever didnt get the joke),
Plant_murderer

ps. go vegan, the hardest parts have little to do with the lifestyle and much more to do with omnis.

Here's what's really hard

Here's what's excruciatingly difficult - impossible, actually: Participating in violence against animals when it is so easily avoidable. I know how badly the animal wants to live, and the meaning he or she gets from life, and I know animals' capacity for pain and suffering, and I know right from wrong, and the Golden Rule. I know I have a profundity of vegan options. I could cook something different for every meal just from browsing the Internet, and have a hugely satisfying and diverse vegan diet - and I'm not kidding and I'm not exaggerating.

I would have difficulty living with myself if I knew I was contributing to the misery and death of animals simply for pleasure, or out of habit, or because I felt like it, or out of moral laziness.

I desire peace of mind - as we all do - and I can think of no more surefire way to achieve that than by doing good, by doing right, by being as kind as compassionate and respectful of life as I can, by being non-violent, by obeying the golden rule.

Knowingly engaging in violence against innocent animals - that's hard. No matter how good you are at rationalizing or denial, deep down you know you're doing something unmerciful, unkind, unjust, and wrong. That catches up to you one way or another.

Being vegan is easy. It's beyond easy - it's simply the right thing to do. It's deeply satisfying to bring your diet in line with your morals.

On dealing with other people...

Also known as the freak out.

I think most vegans have had at least one, if not more.

I remember my first one vividly. I was grocery shopping. (This might be a good time to insert that I hate grocery shopping, or shopping in general.) I usually stock up on things like soy milk because they have a fairly long self life. I had some tofu, some soy yogurt, soy milk and some other veggies. The woman in front of me in the check out line asked if I was lactose intolerant. The exchange went something like this.

Annoying Lady (AL): So you must be lactose intolerant. It's too bad you have to buy all that expensive stuff.

Me: No, I am vegan.

AL: So you don't eat meat? Do you eat sea food?

Me: No.

AL: Why?

Me: (sounding like Satan) Because I don't think that animals or anyone else should be forced into slavery.

Could I have handled this better? Yes. This woman, who really was not that rude, most likely thinks that all vegans are psycho. Oops.

I have had a couple more and I try not to beat myself up over them. I mean really, I can only take so much poking and prodding before I lose it. What if I asked omnivores to justify their meat consumption to me at every turn? What if I would have asked AL what it felt like use murder to get her food? This is what it is like for a vegan every day. We are constantly asked to justify why we eat the way we do.

I have another example. My husband is an omnivore (I don't want to hear it, that's for another post) and we went to a vegan restaurant in Chicago. He is really trying very hard, but had noooooo idea what to eat. I asked him how that felt. I then let him know that's how I feel every other time that we eat out.

Are you one of those vegans who wants the world to go vegan?

Ofcourse I am!
What kind of vegan wouldn't dream of a world without animal abuse, but with everyone's belly being full, with acres of lush woods in the Amazone, with healthy, beautiful people and no more bloodshed?
When I tell people of my veganism, some of them look like they want to run away on the spot, scared of another lecture on how vegans are better. I respect that you don't want to hear about chicks being de-beaked, male chicks being shredded (!!!), cows being raped, ...
So I try not to make it so obvious when I slap it in your face!
Because, hell yeah, you're gonna hear about it.

Next time you're eating scramble, I'll whisper that there are 5 chickens in one cage the size of a letter...
Next time you show me your nice nex leather boots, I'll tell you about Indian cows being dragged across the border to die.
Next time you eat a juicy steak, you'll hear about what it feels like to get a heart attack. In detail.

I'm sorry. I can't help it.
It's because I love you and want you to a healthy and good person, not because I have it in for you!

How Do You Handle Sudden/ Unexpected Cravings?

hey inquisitive people! the Plant_Murderer has returned with some advice.

Cravings.

we all get them at least once and there are a myriad of wonderful substitutes for the lucky fellow who, because they are the personification of a walgreens commercial, happens to be fully stocked with the right one at the right time.......

but life doesnt always indulge the prepared. to put it simply *stuff* happens, and sometimes you find your self staring down an omni food that you want more in that moment than you have ever wanted anything in your life. thus, we have this article: How Do I Survive When its here and I'm here And I Feel Like I'll Die If I dont Get It or Immediate and Strong cravings sans substitutes.

The 4 step plan

#1 : Get the _ _ _ _ Away from it - if all you can smell or see is the thing you crave saying no will drive you crazy, get out of the immediate area surrounding your craving. if step 1 isn't followed step 2 will kill you or at least harm your self control
# 2 : Get Calm- calm your self and relax while taking a moment to think about the source of your burning desire for _______ and what the consequences are if you give in, and how that action would affect your sense of self worth.

# 3: Get Active- dont sit around thinking about wanting it, write, draw, plan to get a hold on that substitute
# 4: Get gone - leave the place where the craving had you in its grips and get some fresh air ( if possible do this when the craving hits the other steps assume that you are stuck in the place with the craved object or food item.

there is no real way to satisfy a craving in the moment sometimes but that plan may just help until you can get out and get satisfied. i tried the plan last week during an impromptu in class pizza party and it worked for me so... here's hoping you never need use these skills but if you wind up doing so, then good luck, they should work :)

Yours if you comment,
P_M

Isn't being vegan really inconvenient?

At first, not having so many options when it comes to being a consumer might seem a bit daunting, but once you know your stuff and get a little organised, it's really quite incredibly easy!

There might not be quite so many ready meals out there, but once you learn to cook (can I use this oppurtunity to plug my other, food blog for easy recipes for beginners here? ;) ) you can make large batches of food and freeze or refridgerate some and then heat these up later for those times you are busy, tired and can't be bothered cooking- voila!- ready meals!( plus home cooking is generally a whole lot healthier than ready meals too). You can also take these into work for packed lunches if your work has a microwave, and sometimes even have your omni colleagues wondering what the nice smell is.

As far as eating out goes, you soon get to learn what local places carry vegan options (and do a happy dance when you find them!) and if you're going out for an event with omnis, many places will make a vegan meal up for you so long as you call in advance and explain what a vegan is to them. Even if you're stuck, you can carry snacks in your bag to nibble on (ie nuts, seeds, Nakd or Lara bars etc) until you get home and heat up that yummy thai curry you put away in your freezer earlier.

As far as toiletries and cleaning materials go, I usually bulk buy everything I need from the co-op (a UK chain of supermarkets who are BUAV approved and clearly mark their products as vegan, not to be confused with US co-ops!) or online stores like veganstore.co.uk (who also carry obscure grocery items like nutritional yeast, powdered soya milk etc). By bulk buying every few months I keep travelling or postage costs and time to a minimum.

As you can see, a little bit of organisation makes a vegan lifestyle quite easy and convenient.

Cravings

What if I crave...

animal flesh (e.g. chicken, beef, pork)

There are several "fake meats" out there; heck, there are even "fake turkeys" for Thanksgiving! Search your local health food store. Also, try experimenting with tofu, tempeh and seitan: bake it, fry it, steam it, grill it, sauté it. It'll be "chewy" and dense enough to give a similar satisfaction--without the cholesterol, without the murder.

sea animal flesh (eg. fishes)

Dino recommended this: scout for nori, hijiki, and dulse. It'll bring back that briny taste of the sea in no time. Add some tofu, maybe, for some denseness, if you so prefer. Otherwise, stick to sea vegetables, also like sea kelp, etc. Top it over brown rice=HEAVEN.

eggs

Get soft tofu, then scramble it. Voila: scrambled tofu, aka "scrambled eggs"

Baking? Use an overripe banana, then mash it up--you get the emulsifying quality of an egg. Another alternative would be soaked flax seeds. Very nutritious, too.

cheese, yogurt, ice cream

Cheese-- Besides "soy/rice cheese", even better, look for nutritional yeast. Add some mustard, soymilk, a little salt, some olive oil/spread, heat everything, and voila, you'll have your very own "cheese" dip, with the same taste, and none of the pus and cholesterol.

Yogurt-- You can make your own by buying a "culture", or if that's too difficult, look for soy/rice yogurt in the dairy section of your supermarket: they're there; seek, and you shall find. If you worry about probiotics, there is an alternative you can take which is kombucha. They're pretty pricey, but you can make your own. There are books out there, even websites that spout their benefits. Again, ask your local health store staff about them.

Ice cream-- There are alternative dairy-free varieties, like the Rice/Soy Dream variety, or from Turtle Mountain, NadaMoo...Again, they'll be found at the freezer section of either your supermarket or health food store. Also, why not try sorbets? They are even more refreshing, plus they clear up your taste buds.

honey

Look for agave nectar in your local health food store or maybe even in your local grocery's sweetener section. Made from the agave cactus, it's pretty sweet, and to me mirrors the taste of honey best. There are other sweeteners out there like maple syrup, and stevia, but I think agave nectar is the best replacement for honey. Seriously, even as honey has all those health benefits, honey is for BEES; it is their food, their source of life. With the epidemic of bees leaving their hives now, it simply isn't cool to ingest more honey, thereby supporting the honey industry and robbing bees of food. Besides, honey=BEE SALIVA. Um, gross?

*****
Another thing to ask: are you getting enough nutrients in your body on a daily basis? It would be highly beneficial to invest in a good multivitamin, especially with a high amount of B vitamins in them, as they are normally found more in animal flesh/by-products.

The whole plant kingdom is at your disposal. There are a plethora of nuts, seeds, pulses, green leafy vegetables, juicy fruits, in a variety of sizes, shapes, tastes, and textures. Everything our bodies need can be met right here; no need to look to the animal kingdom. Lower on the food chain=lower energy expended--ecologically, physically, even monetarily. And more to ingest, which isn't a half-bad deal at all, I think.

I confess I crave sea animal flesh, and sometimes, the occasional sharp smelly cheese. My parents are gourmand omnivores, and I grew up in a tropical archipelago, where fresh seafood is not difficult to come by and the sea or some body of water (clean or dirty) is never too far away. So amidst all the omnivores is me, the vegan. And it IS hard (see previous post), but I think of how badly depleted the sea bio-system is due to overfishing, and destruction of habitats caused by fish farms and dynamite fishing, and how cows are kept pregnant to keep producing milk, kept chained, standing on cold stone floors year in year out until they are depleted and then killed... so I just STOP. That, and grab a B-12 supplement!

So stay vegan!

BUT if you fell off the vegan wagon, it's not the end of the world...as long as you jump right back in and be vegan again. Just try to stay on this time ;)

How Do I Stay Committed?

How do I keep the fire burning in me, etc? It's too hard, I'm all alone...

If the above has ever entered your subconscious, then rest assured you are not alone. If say you are the only one in your household/family having a vegan lifestyle, or worse, if people are questioning its very core, hold tight. Everything will be alright.

There are forums out there for support, be they the online kind, or you can find resources in your local market, or library: there usually are postings that lead to them.

And always at the core, is to alleviate suffering, leave a smaller "energy footprint" behind, for the earth's conservation. Don't believe that by just being one person you cannot make a difference. Every step counts. Remember that. You CAN make a difference.

Peta and PM or "Do you support Peta?"

This is Plant_Murderer and I'm writing today to give my official statement regarding how I feel about Peta, People for the ethical treatment of animals.

Alot of what I came into contact with when I first began my ascent to vegan life came from peta. their forums were my connection to other vegans and their videos kept me motivated and fueled my desire to be an activist. I joined peta's street team, their network of activists, and I was ready and willing to save the world and carry out any action necessary to be a good member of the vegan community, which at the time, I hadn't known was bigger than peta. I was new and naive.

My career with peta ended once I was further along in my development as a person and as a vegan. Though I will be forever grateful for the support that they gave me in my first days I must admit that peta though a fine organization with noble intentions, is often very problematic and is headed down a road that i dont want to join them on.

The point:

1. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals seem to aim to be the People That Everyone Talks About. for the most part there are more people that know about peta than there are that know about veganism or animal rights. That is not good.

2. They are becoming far too welfarist by paying homage to the happy meat propaganda they are doing more harm than good.

I refuse to support the organization as long as they continue to be more about self promotion than activism and advocacy for animals, or when much of their activism leads to expanding the cult following that "humane" meat is developing.

I have other issues with the organization but those are my main two.

Yours till the revolution and beyond,
PM